| News: World
 World Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 27297, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 04:59 PM
With every drop in the creditworthiness of its large euro partners, Germany finds itself in a lonelier position. And the further the crisis moves from small peripheral states like Greece or Portugal, to core countries like Italy and France, the more vulnerable it becomes.
BRUSSELS – One of the defining images of Europe's two-year-old debt crisis is that of the leaders of France and Germany, side by side, presenting their latest strategy for the continent.
But the underlying message of that image — former foes presenting a united front as the 17 countries that use the euro face their biggest crisis since World War II— may now be under threat.
Standard & Poor's downgrade last Friday of France's creditworthiness to AA+ leaves Germany as the only large eurozone economy with a AAA-rating, in many ways making it the lone nation to shoulder the currency union's rescue efforts.
France was the only top-rated country that at least behind the scenes had lobbied for more expansionary policies in the face of a threatening recession. Its fall from the AAA club leaves it up to Luxembourg, Finland or the Netherlands — three other fiscal hard-liners with much smaller economies — to challenge Germany.
Of those four, Germany is by far the largest. Its €211 billion ($267.32 billion) contribution to the eurozone rescue fund is more than three times those of the other three combined, moving it into an odd position of dominance.
Paradoxically, S&P's knockdown could just as easily force the region's biggest economy into even closer European integration as it creates a new moment for German influence on the continent.
At first glance, France's downgrade upgrades the German push for budget cuts and tax increases — ironically, the very strategy that S&P has criticized.
"We believe that a reform process based on a pillar of fiscal austerity alone risks becoming self-defeating," S&P analysts wrote in their reasoning for the downgrades of France and eight other eurozone countries. Rising unemployment and uncertainty among consumers, they argued, has hurt both tax revenue and growth.
The reaction to the downgrades on Friday was swift — and suggested leaders may not even have read the analysts' report. Over the weekend, French Premier Francois Fillon, Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti and Spanish Premier Mariano Rajoy all vowed to cut deficits and adopt more austerity measures should they prove necessary.
The downgrade "certainly reinforces the relative weakness of France to Germany in the current context," said Simon Tilford, chief economist at the Centre for European Reform in London.
"However, what it also does," Tilford continued, "it isolates Germany."
With every drop in the creditworthiness of its large euro partners, Germany finds itself in a lonelier position. And the further the crisis moves from small peripheral states like Greece or Portugal, to core countries like Italy and France, the more vulnerable it becomes.
Any increase of the eurozone's bailout fund, which is underpinned by the guarantees of the AAA countries, would primarily come out of German pockets. The main risk of a more expansionary European Central Bank, would have to be borne by the Bundesbank. Eurobonds, in which debt would be backed by all eurozone countries and is seen by many in Europe as the final solution to the crisis, would automatically mean higher funding costs for Berlin.
S&P said Monday it has downgraded the creditworthiness of the eurozone's rescue fund by one notch to AA+, putting the fund's ability to raise cheap bailout money at risk.
"The downgrade to 'AA+' by only one credit agency will not reduce (the European Financial Stability Facility's) lending capacity of €440 billion," Klaus Regling, the fund's chief executive officer, said in a statement.
But the decision further highlights the pressure on Germany. The alternative, however, a breakup of the euro, would be much more expensive than closer integration, analysts warn. The German economy depends on exports to the rest of Europe and the world, and the eurozone's weaker members have depressed the value of the euro and helped make Germany goods more competitive.
"If the eurozone were to break up, it would be one of the hardest-hit economies in the end," Tilford said.
Whether Berlin will come to that conclusion, and then push it past a skeptical electorate, is another question, one that may ultimately decide the future of the currency union.
Some argue a weakening of Paris, which has traditionally been a fierce defender of national sovereignty, may even help moving toward closer economic and fiscal union in Europe.
"Pressure on France will increase and that will help find more European solutions," said Zsolt Darvas, a research fellow of Brussels-based think tank Bruegel. "My understanding is that Germany will be more open to a higher level of fiscal integration."
That could lead the way to a more powerful European Commission, pan-European taxes, and once the risk of overspending governments has been mitigated, Eurobonds.
That moment is still far away, and for Tilford, and many others, that interpretation is overly optimistic. But without a similar step, they concede, it's hard to see how the eurozone can emerge from the crisis.
As for the Franco-German news conferences, that image is likely to stay, if only because Germany, for historical reasons, cannot afford to be seen as the dominant force in Europe.
"I don't think the Germans can afford to allow this front to disappear," said Tilford. 79 Replies to Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By SevenSeventeen Comments: 13747, member since Tue Apr 22, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 05:25 PM
Nice choice of photos as the Fat Lady is about to sing.
Because now we are getting to the last poker hand and it's high stakes.
Greek bondholders won't deal. They would rather push Greece into the ditch and make them pull a technical default so the CDS will kick in.
Only way to stop that is for Germany to step up to the bar and pour hundreds of billions into the Greek bailout - and it's not lost on anyone that this is going to go on and on with no end in sight to bail those fuckers out.
So....do not be surprized if the Buttfuckers are basically turfed out of the Euro in short order. It'll happen quick to try to stop ragin' contagion without the South.
But yeah! Time to put up or shut up for Germany. Esp. now that Fwance is officially devalued - that's going to be all German, Dutch and Finish money and they're going to call bullshit. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 27297, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 05:36 PM
SevenSeventeen wrote:
Nice choice of photos as the Fat Lady is about to sing.
She's on the stage, and they're warming up the spot light,...
Jan 16 (Reuters) - Germany, the only major euro zone member to retain a top-notch credit rating, refused on Monday to consider boosting the bloc's rescue fund, while Greece was under pressure to urgently break a deadlock in debt swap talks if it is to avoid an unruly default. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By SevenSeventeen Comments: 13747, member since Tue Apr 22, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 05:44 PM
Yep, Greece is going under the bus. Sooner than anybody thinks. I'm pretty sure the decision has already been made in Berlin. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 27297, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 07:36 PM
SevenSeventeen wrote:
Yep, Greece is going under the bus. Sooner than anybody thinks. I'm pretty sure the decision has already been made in Berlin.
Absolutely. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany en>fr fr>en By simplefrench Comments: 63960, member since Wed Mar 19, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 07:46 PM
SevenSeventeen wrote:
Nice choice of photos as the Fat Lady is about to sing.
Because now we are getting to the last poker hand and it's high stakes.
Greek bondholders won't deal. They would rather push Greece into the ditch and make them pull a technical default so the CDS will kick in.
Only way to stop that is for Germany to step up to the bar and pour hundreds of billions into the Greek bailout - and it's not lost on anyone that this is going to go on and on with no end in sight to bail those fuckers out.
So....do not be surprized if the Buttfuckers are basically turfed out of the Euro in short order. It'll happen quick to try to stop ragin' contagion without the South.
But yeah! Time to put up or shut up for Germany. Esp. now that Fwance is officially devalued - that's going to be all German, Dutch and Finish money and they're going to call bullshit.
Greece represents 3% of europe Gdp. The best is to let them leave if it is possible.It would not be a drama. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By VAVD Comments: 2671, member since Wed Nov 25, 2009On Mon Jan 16, 2012 07:53 PM
simplefrench wrote:
Greece represents 3% of europe Gdp. The best is to let them leave if it is possible.It would not be a drama.
It's not so much Greece itself, Simple. A Greek default would drain confidence in the other weak Euro countries, such as your own, besides what it would do to your banks, which are over-exposed to Greek debt.
But keep telling yourself everything is ok, if it makes you feel better. | |
re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 27297, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 07:57 PM
Edited by BurnParis (59538) on 2012-01-16 19:58:42
simplefrench wrote:
Greece represents 3% of europe Gdp. The best is to let them leave if it is possible.It would not be a drama.
Speaking of the "fat lady",...Mrs Merkel does not agree.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel told a radio news program today that should Greece default and exit the Eurozone, this would trigger a “domino effect” that could ensnare other indebted nations. Merkel said that Europe was doing everything it could to avoid a default scenario and that Germany was “absolutely committed” to the euro.
“In a currency union with 17 members, we can only have a stable euro if we prevent disorderly processes,” Merkel noted in the interview. “Therefore it is our top priority to avoid an uncontrolled default, because it would hit not only Greece. The danger would be very high that it would hit many other countries.” | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 27297, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:22 PM
VAVD wrote:
simplefrench wrote:
Greece represents 3% of europe Gdp. The best is to let them leave if it is possible.It would not be a drama.
It's not so much Greece itself, Simple. A Greek default would drain confidence in the other weak Euro countries, such as your own, besides what it would do to your banks, which are over-exposed to Greek debt.
But keep telling yourself everything is ok, if it makes you feel better.
Here simple - you're kind of stupid so maybe a picture will help.
See the pretty picture?
What this shows is who has the most to lose when the Greeks go into default. If its a "disorderly default", you can kiss that money goodbye. It's not coming back - ever.
Now, looking at that chart, knowing the current situation in your country, are you ready to eat 57 Billion euros in Greek debt that will never get paid back to you?
Do you think the people of Germany are going to stand behind their elected officials and keep hemorrhaging euros out to other countries like spain, italy and even france, knowing that, like the money they gave Greece, they'll likely never see it again?
Are you starting to sense a "little drama" now simple?  | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By SevenSeventeen Comments: 13747, member since Tue Apr 22, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:34 PM
simplefrench wrote:
SevenSeventeen wrote:
Nice choice of photos as the Fat Lady is about to sing.
Because now we are getting to the last poker hand and it's high stakes.
Greek bondholders won't deal. They would rather push Greece into the ditch and make them pull a technical default so the CDS will kick in.
Only way to stop that is for Germany to step up to the bar and pour hundreds of billions into the Greek bailout - and it's not lost on anyone that this is going to go on and on with no end in sight to bail those fuckers out.
So....do not be surprized if the Buttfuckers are basically turfed out of the Euro in short order. It'll happen quick to try to stop ragin' contagion without the South.
But yeah! Time to put up or shut up for Germany. Esp. now that Fwance is officially devalued - that's going to be all German, Dutch and Finish money and they're going to call bullshit.
Greece represents 3% of europe Gdp. The best is to let them leave if it is possible.It would not be a drama.
That would have been the case a year & a half ago, but your masters in Brussels and Berlin decided to make Greece their Waterloo to save their precious EUnicorn (just like I knew they would).
But now with the downgrades the magnitude of the amounts necessary - just to hold the line in Greece - it will be political suicide to keep going.
Better to admit failure and hang the Greeks now to bolster Italy.
I will say though when you Euros screw the pooch it is dramatic  | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 4)
en>fr fr>en By VAVD Comments: 2671, member since Wed Nov 25, 2009On Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:34 PM
Greece is either going to default, in which case France (and Germany) is fucked beyond comprehension, or it will leave the Euro. It's first order of business after leaving the Euro will be to print off a 56 billion drachma note and, with the ink on it still wet, hand it to the French ambassador as payment in full. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 3)
en>fr fr>en By VAVD Comments: 2671, member since Wed Nov 25, 2009On Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:40 PM
I don't know why Simple, but I like you, so I don't want you to suffer in the coming collapse.
With that in mind, I urge you run to your bank, withdraw your money, and invest it in British bonds. They're still AAA and are in no danger of a downgrade in the foreseeable future.  | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 27297, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 08:41 PM
If it wasn't so funny, it would be kind of sad, seeing how little the euros on this site seem to understand about the situation as it stands. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany en>fr fr>en By simplefrench Comments: 63960, member since Wed Mar 19, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 09:03 PM
Edited by simplefrench (60194) on 2012-01-16 21:05:26
I knew we were over exposed to greek debt sadly.One lends and one is fucked at the end..
I prefer they leave the € anyway.
ps: 50% of greek debt is canceled i think. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By ReBourne Comments: 7451, member since Sat Oct 24, 2009On Mon Jan 16, 2012 09:04 PM
Edited by ReBourne (82387) on 2012-01-16 21:07:08 whoops!
 Sadly, there are some really clueless americans here as well. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 3)
en>fr fr>en By FrogFryer Comments: 36265, member since Wed Apr 16, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 09:48 PM
Edited by FrogFryer (63085) on 2012-01-16 21:52:49
SevenSeventeen wrote:
Yep, Greece is going under the bus. Sooner than anybody thinks. I'm pretty sure the decision has already been made in Berlin.
i dont think theyre going to be able to hold it together even after they throw greece under the bus
if the rest of the union makes it till the end of 2012 intact as is i'd be shocked
a smaller german union or complete disintergration is still the 64,000 question
a two union europe never
one of the reasons ill always doubt a survival or even a formation of a "southern" union is because
italy greece spain/ where do ya even begin with all the negatives.......
they'll hold nothing together
they'll be at each others throats and wallets in the first 20 minutes 
france belongs with them
and a "two speed" planned around brussels will still be a drag and burden on the germans
the germans need to do some type of small union minus france with very close ties to the UK
it could be a powerhouse | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 2)
en>fr fr>en By SevenSeventeen Comments: 13747, member since Tue Apr 22, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:19 PM
All of the above assumes a 'soft landing' - an orderly default by Greece (lol) and than an explicit Italian bond guarantee by German taxpayers ( yeah okay Dutch and Finnish too).
The speed of events now is out of the barn - I could see any number of scenarios where this goes South in hurry  | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany en>fr fr>en By jeanv Comments: 17418, member since Sun Sep 11, 2005On Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:21 PM
FrogFryer wrote:
The germans need to do some type of small union minus france with very close ties to the UK
it could be a powerhouse
Surprisingly, you don't find many Brit or German politicians advocating this solution.
Gee, if only they had your brains, Fryer, they could do wonders.
Not to mention build a powerhouse.
| re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By Hadrian Comments: 11164, member since Fri Jun 03, 2005On Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:29 PM
Watch out, Fry_Air!
He's posting pictures of Singaporean night clubs now!
OMG! | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By FrogFryer Comments: 36265, member since Wed Apr 16, 2003On Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:46 PM
Hadrian wrote:
Watch out, Fry_Air!
He's posting pictures of Singaporean night clubs now!
OMG!
I thought idiot was going for forest hills circa 1985 | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By Lord_Haw_Haw Comments: 9033, member since Sun Mar 07, 2010On Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:57 PM
Edited by Lord_Haw_Haw (82577) on 2012-01-16 23:03:24
BurnParis wrote:
VAVD wrote:
simplefrench wrote:
Greece represents 3% of europe Gdp. The best is to let them leave if it is possible.It would not be a drama.
It's not so much Greece itself, Simple. A Greek default would drain confidence in the other weak Euro countries, such as your own, besides what it would do to your banks, which are over-exposed to Greek debt.
But keep telling yourself everything is ok, if it makes you feel better.
Here simple - you're kind of stupid so maybe a picture will help.
See the pretty picture?
What this shows is who has the most to lose when the Greeks go into default. If its a "disorderly default", you can kiss that money goodbye. It's not coming back - ever.
Now, looking at that chart, knowing the current situation in your country, are you ready to eat 57 Billion euros in Greek debt that will never get paid back to you?
Do you think the people of Germany are going to stand behind their elected officials and keep hemorrhaging euros out to other countries like spain, italy and even france, knowing that, like the money they gave Greece, they'll likely never see it again? 
Are you starting to sense a "little drama" now simple? 
Yes. There are private third parties involved and an unwarranted accusation of " antisemitism " will have the Jerries apologizing and handing money over
It's about time they finished their guilt complex
| re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 27297, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Tue Jan 17, 2012 04:47 AM
simplefrench wrote:
I prefer they leave the € anyway.
And that's the point simple - you and an ever growing number of people around europe are starting to feel the same way, realizing that the "dream" your elites sold you wasn't realistic.
Latest polls show 51% of italians believe they are worse off being in the EU. Once greece defaults (and they will) they will have no choice but to leave the EU - but already its too late, the damage is done. After that, how long do you think it will be that italy jumps ship? Remember, the majority of italians are already looking for the exit. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 27297, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Tue Jan 17, 2012 04:55 AM
jeanv wrote:
Surprisingly, you don't find many Brit or German politicians advocating this solution.
No, I'm pretty sure a few germans have given this idea some thought, and even a few brits, but realistically this will never happen - particularly if the greek default is disorderly.
The final collapse of the euro will damage germany so badly, that it will be another 50 to 75 years before they recover from it.
Brits are smart enough to see that - you don't run into a burning house just to get out of the rain. | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany en>fr fr>en By jeanv Comments: 17418, member since Sun Sep 11, 2005On Tue Jan 17, 2012 05:01 AM
BurnParis wrote:
The final collapse of the euro will damage germany so badly, that it will be another 50 to 75 years before they recover from it.
Brits are smart enough to see that - you don't run into a burning house just to get out of the rain.
Assuming there's a collapse of the Euro, I'd agree with those statement.
Which would confirm Fryer's words
the germans need to do some type of small union minus france with very close ties to the UK. it could be a powerhouse
are just that. Words. Hot air. Fried air. As usual.
-- | re: Analysis: Credit downgrades put onus on Germany en>fr fr>en By BurnParis Comments: 27297, member since Thu Mar 13, 2003On Tue Jan 17, 2012 05:06 AM
jeanv wrote:
Assuming there's a collapse of the Euro, I'd agree with those statement.
And you're still holding out the hopes of salvaging the euro, even in the event of a "disorderly" greek default?
That's cute. Naive, but cute. |
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